Fighting COVID-19: researchers racing to save lives
With guest Dr. David Kelvin
Produced by Podstarter
Mar. 18, 2020
This is the Research Nova Scotia podcast.
Today, our CEO, Stefan Leslie, had the opportunity to visit Dr. David Kelvin’s lab at Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Dr. Kelvin is an infectious disease expert with an international research program that carries out studies around the world. His team of researchers is currently focused on Covid-19.
Stefan Leslie (00:36):
I’m Stefan Leslie and I’m sitting with Dr. David Kelvin and we’re here to talk about all his work and support of the Covid-19 Coronavirus. I’d like to start off by just asking you to tell us what you do here.
Dr. David Kelvin (00:49):
I’m in the department of microbiology and immunology, but we have multiple research sites around the world. We have a team in China, we have a team in Italy and of course the team here in Dalhousie. We’re very interested in emerging infectious diseases and as you well know, there is an emerging infectious disease outbreak right now, Covid 19 and we’re very, very interested in finding solutions to this crisis.
Stefan Leslie (01:18):
I know this is a very fast moving event and here we are sitting on the 17th of March and who knows what it’ll be like, you know, in a week’s time. But can you tell me what would it look like if we walked into a hospital or a healthcare facility in say, Italy right now? What would I be looking at?
Dr. David Kelvin (01:37):
Northern Italy has been the longest in this crisis period right now, and it’s really only about three weeks. The ambulances never stop, the ER rooms are overcrowded. There are insufficient number of hospital beds to accommodate all the people who need hospitalization. The really severe patients, there isn’t enough ICU beds and sadly, there isn’t enough equipment there to actually intubate people, (to) help them breathe. So, I would say we would all be alarmed. We would all be shocked. And these are not this, these healthcare facilities, these hospitals are the best in Italy.
Dr. David Kelvin (02:29):
Now to the best of This is, of course, asking you to predict the future, but were people to take this seriously or if people continue to take this seriously and self-impose these management measures to manage the spread as best we can. Do you believe we can avoid the fate that you just described of Italy?
Dr. David Kelvin (02:50):
The big problem of a pandemic is that the population is naive to the emerging infectious disease. And we’re naive to the virus, this new virus. So nobody has immunity. So, if we avoid it today, we, and say the United States, is filled with disease, we will all be a pocket, a reservoir of naive people who any new outbreak could come in here and wreak the same havoc as any place else. So yes, we may avoid it today, but that’s why I said we need a sense of urgency because we’re buying the time. Let’s get the vaccine rolled out. Let’s get the immunotherapeutics understood. Let’s let’s find out what the pathology is. Let’s find out what we can today so that this precious time that we’ve bought, now we can implement that in the future.
Stefan Leslie (03:47):
So that brings us to your research. And so if we are to get a better understanding of what your research does, how can pursuing the questions that you have begin to unpack what might’ve happened in Italy and how in the future we can imagine a different path for the healthcare system here or indeed anywhere else if faced with a similar crisis?
Dr. David Kelvin (04:17):
Okay, I sort of go back a little bit. It’s not very long. It’s about eight weeks ago, and, because of our work in China, we have many colleagues in Wuhan and one of our colleagues in Wuhan works in the ER room and he called us, very alarmed, that they had insufficient PPE, (personal protection equipment) to actually deal with the surge of patients who were coming to the hospital. And he did send us some photos. There was a group of a thousand people outside of the ER room and they had been experiencing that for about 10 days. So this large number of patients that comes forward, you have to make rapid decisions and determine who gets the few hospital beds that are available and who gets the few ICU beds, which are in extremely short supply. And you can see just from what we talked about in Italy that this is a major problem for healthcare. So how do you make the decisions? Well, the ER room docs or the docs don’t have a sufficient time to go through a lengthy procedure to determine who should get hospitalized and who would, and who would not get hospitalized and that will impact who can survive and who can’t survive. So what we thought we would do is try and look at biomarkers and try and devise a system where we could use biomarkers to rapidly assess who was going to have a mild case of illness, who was going to have a severe case of illness and who would have a very severe case of illness so that we could prioritize those patients and determine who should have the best opportunity to get the hospital care or ICU slots that were available.
Stefan Leslie (06:24):
Can you explain what a biomarker is?
Dr. David Kelvin (06:26):
Well, in your peripheral blood you have thousands of proteins and on a daily basis, some will go up, some will go down, but when you have an infection, some of those biomarkers will go extremely high. So what we wanted to do was look at the biomarkers that are associated with an infection and see if some of the biomarkers told us a story, or a footprint, or a signature, for those people who are mild, those people who would become severe. And those people who would become very severe.
Stefan Leslie (07:00):
So we hear a lot these days about flattening the curve, which if I understand correctly, it’s about delaying the spread so that the burden on the healthcare system diminishes because you spread out the demand over a longer period of time. But your research sounds like it isn’t. It is addressing this another important way by being able to identify those who are going to be most severely affected and those who would be presumably able to care for themselves perhaps through isolation. So are these the two major elements that are required to address this kind of crisis? Both ensuring the spread is delayed but then knowing how to deal with it once, once it is here?
Dr. David Kelvin (07:44):
Well, the spreading or flattening the curve is in theory, a really good idea and I’m all for it. So that, not only can we help deal with allocation of the resources over an extended period of time and allow for, uh, us to meet the demand on a daily basis. But, also it gives us a chance to develop future therapeutics, which may come online and help out later on down the road. So I actually see flattening the curve has a multipurpose strategy behind it. The problem is, theoretically that’s a great idea, but practically we just don’t know right now. And we have to be prepared for eventual outcomes. And we think that, what we’re trying to do with biomarkers may assist doctors in the ER. There’s a second benefit to doing the biomarkers as well. The biomarkers may uncover the reason why people have severe illness and it may give us an early indication on how to treat those people, and develop new therapeutics to actually address what the underlying cause of severe diseases. So, our program we think can have a dual benefit. One is that early assessment of patients and allocation of hospital beds, but also we think it will play an important role in diagnostics and administration of therapeutics.
Stefan Leslie (09:28):
So can you tell me a little bit about how the urgency of this research works? So we’re in the midst of a crisis where a lot of people think about the delivery of healthcare. But tell me about the importance of beginning to look at or continuing to look at these questions, and how that will set us up in the future to manage these sorts of things.
Dr. David Kelvin (09:50):
That’s a good point. Unfortunately if we were able to turn the clock back, we probably should have a standing army of infectious disease soldiers, that is people who are conducting research all the time, year round. And so that when a crisis like this develops, we’re very well prepared. I’m not saying that Canada wasn’t prepared. The lessons from SARS certainly taught us a lot, and I think that Canada as a nation did the best job they could in being prepared. But better infrastructure, better funding infrastructure, I think is what we want to try and achieve. We want to be prepared for these eventualities and we want to have a complete army ready to respond. Not something that we’re going to have a patchwork ad hoc system. Even though I do agree that the, the Canadian government has been really great in applying research funding in a need-to-be basis. But, ideally I’d like to see us be more prepared on the research front by a steady stream of funding that allowed us to complete these activities at a very high level and be prepared.
Stefan Leslie (11:16):
So the funding that you received most recently from the Canadian Institutes of Health Research gave a real push to some of this work and, but you’ve been publicly discussing how additional funding can really help. So tell me about how the additional support that you hope to receive, and hope to continue to receive over some time. How does that affect your ability to do more work or better work or reduce the uncertainty in the work that you’re doing?
Dr. David Kelvin (11:49):
The initial $1 million grant that we got from CIHR is really great and I think I look on it as an initial investment. But we have a global team. We have 26 investigators, we have 16 different countries, and we’re trying to spread that million dollars over a long long distance. Two of the countries that are involved in our research program are Italy and Spain. And Italy and Spain right now are in very, very bad shape. So while we think this is really fantastic, we recognize that this is going to be a war. It’s something that’s going to be with us for I look on two years at least. And we need many things. We need therapeutics, we need vaccines, we need research on who to vaccinate, how well they uptake the vaccine. There are many, many questions. There are hospitals or healthcare workers. So there, there are many issues that have to be addressed. And while the initial bolus of funding from the CIHR is really great, and I can’t stress how important it is for them to recognize that research plays a strong, strong role in this in combating this crisis. But also we need to recognize that extended funding is going to help us through each stage of this epidemic. For example, we’re just seeing the initial stages now, we don’t know if there’s going to be a first wave or second wave of this disease and how can we be better prepared? What, what is the disease all about? Are there therapeutics that we can use? We need to learn as much as we possibly can today and then we need to sharpen our focus on how to take all of that information and reposition ourselves for a second wave. It’s just like a war. So we should be prepared. And second(ly), all of the additional research will require additional support and we look on as the government and the public, our partners in trying to find solutions to these problems. So I love doing outreach programs. I love interacting with the public, helping them understand what we do, helping them understand the crisis and giving them information that they can better manage their own lives and feel safer in what they do.
Stefan Leslie (14:32):
And there has been a lot of information that’s been shared with the public on how to manage the spread. On newspapers, online, TV … there’s been a very consistent message, certainly in Canada, about how people can help stop the spread. What would you say to people or say to people about how they can on the research side as well, so it’s not just about managing this particular spread, but how can people participate in supporting the research effort that you may be doing or others?
Dr. David Kelvin (15:02):
Well, one is, to try and know a little bit more about the research activities that are taking place and I kind of look at it as our responsibility as well to to reach out to the public to help them understand what we’re working on, what the benefits are and also how they can, as the public, can actually engage and participate in some of these research activities. For example, part of our research activities involve patients. And when a patient goes to the hospital, they will be asked if they want to participate in the research study and we need those patients to participate because that’s the only way we’re going to get samples and information to benefit the patients down the road. So there are many different levels that the public can interact with us, but I kind of look at it as they are partners in moving forward.
Stefan Leslie (16:03):
David, how did you get into this work to begin with? You’ve been at this for some time, but where did this all begin for you?
Dr. David Kelvin (16:10):
Well, we had been interested in infectious disease many years ago and we had been studying HIV. One of the reasons I was interested in HIV is it was really my first experience with an epidemic pandemic. So we were trying to understand the immunology of HIV at the earliest stages of infection. And we were working in Toronto and there was an outbreak of a new emerging infectious disease that originated in China. And that was SARS one.
Stefan Leslie (16:42):
I remember that well. Can you tell me how your work that related to SARS prepared you for this? So this was what, 15 years ago or so? So how is it that you built on that work to arrive at where we are today?
Dr. David Kelvin (16:55):
Well, we knew nothing about SARS back then and in fact we, as a global population, were quite naive and ill prepared because here was an acute infectious disease that started and was recognized in China just by a few reports here and there. It spread to Vietnam. And in Vietnam there was a relatively large outbreak, but it was still unknown to the rest of the world, except for, you know, a couple of reports. And then within a matter of weeks it spread globally. And when it spread, it, infected not only the general public but healthcare workers. And when healthcare workers go down, then everybody suffers because they can’t look after the people who are sick. And you have a major, major problem on your hands.
Stefan Leslie (17:52):
This is a bit of a family affair for you. Can you talk about your daughter’s role in this as well?
Dr. David Kelvin (17:57):
Well, Alison my oldest daughter, several years ago fell in love with doing research and through twists and turns we’ve formed this partnership. And this partnership, we’ve been working together for about 10 years and, she’s an assistant professor here at Dalhousie university and her activities are in modeling infectious disease. So she’s presently in Saskatoon working at the high containment facility there and she’s working on Covid 19. And she’s trying to model animal systems to test out vaccines, antivirals and understand the pathogenesis of the disease. But I don’t want to end there. Nikki, my wife, she’s very important as an editor for a journal of infection in developing countries and assist me in editing multiple manuscripts. And in addition, my son manages the website for our, Canadian coronavirus research network. And I have another daughter who’s in California who also manages a community website to bring information to the community on Covid 19.
Stefan Leslie (19:14):
We’re lucky to have the entire family work on this.
Dr. David Kelvin (19:17):
Yes, I’m lucky to have a family that’s committed to the cause. We’re a national international team working on this and the real key here is what role does Nova Scotia have to play in the very fact that we only have a handful of cases here. Whereas there’s five cases of really severe people in one ward in, in SAS [inaudible], which is the city is about the same size as Halifax. So what, what is our role? We are in the luxury position of being able to function normally right now. So we better use every moment we have to do what we can to A: be prepared, B: assist all the people who can’t do it. So we do have a very important role and I think everybody has to have the sense of urgency here and not be laid back and say we’re okay because that was the mantra in the United States.
Stefan Leslie (20:19):
Thank you very much for your time. I know you’re busy and this is moving quickly and I appreciate all the time you’ve taken to answer questions today.
Dr. David Kelvin (20:26):
Thanks a lot.
Stefan Leslie (20:27):
You have been listening to Stefan Leslie, CEO of research, Nova Scotia and Dr. David Kelvin infectious disease expert at his Dalhousie university lab in Halifax, Nova Scotia. For more information on the incredible research happening in Nova Scotia, visit researchns.ca. Or find us on social. Research Nova Scotia invest in research that builds and translates knowledge to help ensure a sustainable future for Nova Scotia and beyond. Thank you for listening to the Research Nova Scotia podcast.